Capcom: Infinite. We all know the memes associated with the Juggernaut, and he had a hilarious presence in Deadpool 2 (including a vulgar, tongue-in-cheek choir song describing his power). #1 Edited By XiiX. Win by DEATH (If you think both wont die in this battle, win by KO) Fight takes place in Washington D. Thanos remains a powerful cosmic villain even without the Infinity Stones and Infinity Gauntlet. He's a dimension/an universe/a reality in itself. I'd like to leave the list and say, The Living Tribunal, Chaos Lord, The Beyonder etc could. In fact if the main universe is destroyed (not taken over by another dimension) then all of those dimensions die too. round 1: Base Geralt vs Base Morbius. The Lord of Apokolips. Either way you look at it Galactus is too broken for these fights to be fair. Published Aug 7, 2021 Dormammu and Galactus are two of Marvel's most dangerous villains, but who would win in a fight? We look at their comic histories for the answer. Annihilus (/ ə ˈ n aɪ. While Thanos ranks. Spiderman 33%. 15 M. Thanos. We would like to show you a description here but the site won’t allow us. Search. . . 588 B. The thing is, the Soul Stone seems to temporarily force Strange into this state during Infinity War. via outskirtsbattledomewiki. Who will win in a fight between Thanos (MCU) and Dormammu (MCU)?Dormammu is far more powerful than Thanos. If Thanos and Dormammu went up against each other in. And even if does, Thanos is still mortal unlike Dormammu who is a god. From Loki to Thanos to Ronan, we ranked the biggest, baddest, most conniving villains in the Marvel movies ahead of Avengers: Endgame. Every Ghost Rider Ever. Wong: Dormammu dwells in the Dark Dimension. The Amazing Spider-Man managed to defeat not one, but two hosts of the Phoenix Force at once. Dorm in his Dark Dimension is even more powerful, and his powers have casually absorbed whole universes. 19. Dormammu v. 2. Those would be whole teams of people who could do nothing to the one person they are fighting. Mantis is not a factor. In the MCU Dormammu is the most powerful thing we’ve seen so far, even with Infinity Ultron, Thanos, the Watcher, the TVA, and Kang. 242. Seems like a rather fun topic to discuss. not voted that's Not True, there are characters who can defeat Dormammu Ex: Infinity Gauntlet or Heart of the Universe Thanos, Living Tribunal, Spectre, Beyonder, Dr Doom. Dormammu won't leave his reality to fight, so it's on Thanos to go to him and fight, which puts him at a lethal disadvantage. Remember Strange still has the Time Stone. Marvel StudiosThanos I believe will out smart Dormammu, Dr. The only reason Dormammu couldn't. Dormammu has a more versatile power set. When Thanos simply got angry once (while wielding the guantlet), it triggered a deadly, universe - shaking energy release that threw the whole space - time continuum out of whack, and severed the link from Asgard (the realm of the Norse Gods, which in the MU is a separate dimension from the main universe) to Earth, as well as shaking up the. Wait so this is two rounds: 1. 8% Total voters 37; Prev. Darkseid could beat Thanos but I'm not sure how he'd fare against Dormammu. Juggernaut. Although he has a formidable powerset of his own and a keen intellect, a villain like Dormammu completely outclasses Thanos in every conceivable way. Neutral Dimension. Rounds 2 and 3: Dormammu just destroys Arishem easily. Thanos can't repeatedly use the infinity stones without taking damage, so at most, he blows up the universe, and then Strange eats it, then eats Thanos because he destroyed his arm. Ego. I’d also like to point out Thanos is no where near as strong as beings like galactus, Odin, the pheonix force, lady death etc saying he’s unstoppable is very far fetched (the only reason the avengers lost is cause Thanos was totally prepared and the avengers weren’t in any capacity). ago Dormammu is a. gbr dormammu with the same team of last video then stage 24 jean grey dark phoenix gameplay and comparison with jean grey hersel. Round 2 - Thanos has the Power Stone. Even worse, no indication is ever given that there is only one Dormammu in the multiverse, so Everytime a timeline is pruned, Dormammu is pruned along with it. Thanos was shown to be the MCU's most powerful villain. ago. The movie served as a. Capcom 3′s most dominant characters. 11 10,033 8 0. It was retconned so it took place in an alternate universe, not the main 616 Marvel Universe, this AU was inadvertently created by the Beyonder, but the beings summoned to fight in the first Secret Wars were really summoned there, so that means he really did beat Galactus, at least, and you. Even without the power stone, Thanos was much stronger, not to mention a more skilled fighter. We would like to show you a description here but the site won’t allow us. Load More. Not to mention, Thanos hasn't shown great defensive abilities even with all the stones against something like storm breaker. Dormammu is the most powerful dark entity in all of Marvel Comics' publication history, though its full potential has yet to be seen in the MCU. And Dormammu is now prepared for the concept of time which Strange used against him. 8000x4500 - Comics - Dormammu. Fight takes place in a nuetral realm. Stra. #179. Searching. During that period of. You’re a lonely child. User Lists: 0 #1. Coolboy6 He/Him 7,436 6,009. Doctor Strange's Thanos tactic is one of the defining moments of Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame, but it was actually teased all the way back in the Dormammu fight in the first Doctor Strange movie. Even if the runes become a problem, Dormammu just gets rid of the runes with the wave of a hand and proceeds to kill Wanda in one of the many, many ways he killed Strange. power against power dormammu will win, but combining power with mind: mephisto wins. That puts it right up Doctor Fate's alley. 2. Dr. Trigon & Thanos (Infinity Gauntlet) 589 B. LOL "[1] Dormammu captured Eternity in an old Dr. Thanos is very powerful, even without the Infinity Gaunlet or stones. Who will win in a fight between Darkseid (Soulfire Formula) & Galactus (Fused) and Thanos (Astral Regulator) & Dormammu (Eternity's Power)?Superhero Battle match: Thanos (Infinity Gauntlet) versus Dormammu (Eternity's Power). 5. Faltines are basically just really smart and highly adaptable to magic. How many stones does Thanos need to take down Dormammu?Round 1: No Stones, Uru SwordRound 2: Po 22 votes, 22 comments. Created by Pimpecak. 2 years ago. 14 years ago. By the middle-90s, Umar wasn't even a threat anymore, so much that Dormmy. Hulk may get stronger as. Hit The Red Button. MCU Thanos is hilariously slow compared to Boros, who scales with Supersonic+ characters at the low end and scales with Massively Hypersonic characters by the high end. Thanos vs Dormammu. The ending of Avengers: Infinity War saw Thanos defeat the Avengers and use the Infinity Gauntlet to kill half of all life in the universe. Doctor Strange's Thanos tactic is one of the defining moments of Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame, but it was actually teased all the way back in the Dormammu fight in the first Doctor Strange movie. Rules: All powers and equipment: ON (duh) Morals: On. Dormammu vs Thanos. 0% Lord Thanos Votes: 15 40. It is a different dimension but still apart of the universe if that makes sense. Thanos could make some plan to fight most opponents here but it wont get him the win as he has no shot vs Knull unless he gets amped and 10hrs isnt enough. If the battle is in the Dark Dimension, Khonshu is handily defeated. Each controls a primordial aspect of the universe: space, reality, time, power, mind, and soul. That being said, if Thanos does not have prep and this is indeed a random encounter where the. However,. Go to page. Dormammu is as powerful as 4-5 infinity stones, so Thanos would need that many or more to defeat dormammu. Dormammu is dangerous, but he's not playing in Thanos' league. Hal48. Deadpool and Thanos in Dead vs. This allows him to teleport billions of people, establish telepathic linkages between realities, and even employ it in battle. Dormammu and Sutur are less entities than they are forces of nature. Thanos was able to break free of the mirror dimension using the power of the Infinity Stones - presumably Reality or Space (or both). Thanos has been killed; Dormammu, so far, can't be killed. Vs. If Dormammu won in Dr Strange, that Time Stone is in. power against power dormammu will win, but combining power with mind: mephisto wins. round one: dormamut>trigon>>>darkseid>>thanos. Strange has defeated Dormammu on pure whit and smarting and Thanos is easily 10x smarter than Strange. Dormammu überzeugte Kaecilius seine Macht zu benutzen, um die Meister der mystischen Künste zu zerstören und die dunkle Dimension auf die Erde zu bringen. At the very least, Dormammu would be 5D considering only the spatial dimensions. the authorities have managed to narrow it down to a very dangerous vampire. Otherwise you're telling me Infinity War Thor > EndGame Thor, Captain America Thor, and Iron Man. Beyond time. Dr. Korvac is one of the Avengers' most dangerous villains. Wiki Points. Rage might give you even more value when it gets reforged. Not only was it visually remarkable to watch,. Dormammu the Dread easy. my 'theory' as you call it is fact Mephisto talks thanos into having a fight with the superheros so thanos can impress Death inbattle - fact Thanos comes up with an idea to "I need only to cut myself off from. fight takes place in mutual dimension. Battling Dormammu is a challenge for all but the most powerful magic users. Galactus proved to be more powerful than Dormammu and would probably win in every fight they find themselves in. All celestials vs dormammu (in his realm) mephisto (in his realm), kubik, in-betweener, tyrant (full power), wathcers, vishant, the seven friendless. Join this channel to get access to perks:you want to see more videos like this, SUBSCRIBE her. login to vote. Poll Dormammu (mcu) vs Thanos (iG) (58 votes) Dormammu 66%. If Dormammu wins he gets handed Dr. Even if Thanos managed to assemble all 6 stones into the Infinity Gauntlet, it still woulnd't be enough (due in part by the fact that the gauntlet woulnd't work in Dormammu's reality) and would get absolutely shit on. Dormammu barely gave strange 30 seconds before he deleted him. Thanos has full infinity gauntlet. Dormammu out of his realm is still on par with Eternity (for context, that's slightly above Fully-Fed pre-Lifebringer Galactus). in any case. Doctor Strange was famously able to use the Time Stone to trap Dormammu in a loop that frustrates the monster into leaving Earth, but a pre-Infinity War Thanos would. The only ones that could even possibly hurt 616 Thanos are final flame Sutur and Dormammu. . He is an Eternal and has proven himself more powerful than most characters in the Marvel Universe, even without external enhancements such as the Infinity Stones. That doesn't mean Thanos automatically wins . @dbzsuperssss: IG wielders less experienced and stable than Thanos, like Adam Warlock, have casually stomped. By a long shot. LOL " [1] Dormammu captured Eternity in an old Dr. Dormammu would win imo. Generally, when you reverse time, you reverse everything including the memory of the person existing. He is a high noble demon from Makai. Dormammu (MCU) Dormammu solos easily. Strange comic , so you can argue that he's a universe level threat, but this was before cosmic power levels in Marvel got sorted (Eternity was a new character, so was Living Tribunal. R3 is dangerous. #Thanos #Dormammu #VSSource : MoviesHi friends! we publish Entertainment videos. for example when Kurt Busiek said at the dccomics forum that he meant cap would beat batman and not whats in print (ie cap could beat batman), well the editors didn't agree (wasn't asked) to that. Franklin can create universes but wiccan can manipulate realities (that houses multiverses) simultaneously. MCU Dormammu vs Comics Base Thanos Round 3. If you are looking for the FAQ and Super Sticky, it can be found here . No one. Strange. That’s when he partially reverts to his flaming Faltine form while merging himself with the mystical, vastly powerful energies of the Dark Dimension, making him unfathomably powerful, as we learn in Doctor. Considering certain outputs of power create limits on the infinity gauntlet, even Thanos with the gauntlet would find himself in a very tough battle if he didn't know to end it immediately. Tomura wouldn't go down easily but a mystic being as. It takes a lot to take him down (literally, since his durability is off the charts), and as it happens, we’ve already covered the fight between Thanos and Kang, and the outcome was as you. Superhero Battle match: Darkseid (Soulfire Formula) & Galactus (Fused) versus Thanos (Astral Regulator) & Dormammu (Eternity's Power). STRONGER: DOCTOR STRANGE. Both are at their full might. We would like to show you a description here but the site won’t allow us. The Dormammu fight is one of the more memorable climaxes in the MCU, as it involves Strange outsmarting the ruler of the Dark. Mcu team 83%. Surtur might be able to win this fight if he manages to trick the Ruler of the Dark Dimension into. 11 Thanos. GEoM at his most powerful vs Lord Thanos (cubes and all) vs General Trelane (Q squared) vs pissed off Dormammu (his most powerful) Who wins ? fight takes place anywhere they wanna fight Ah had to add Lucifer Morning Star. Warning: Spoilers for Thor Annual (2023) #1 ahead! While the mighty Thor may seem like Doctor Strange's polar opposite (one a blunt, unstoppable force, the other a master of subtlety and cunning), it turns out that the God of Thunder is quite capable of adapting Doctor Strange's biggest MCU moment for his own ends. Now with a way to reverse the damage, the Avengers and their allies must assemble once more and learn to put differences aside in order to work together and set things right. . Thanos would absolutely crush Dormammu. is practically indestructible. Wong: Dormammu dwells in the Dark Dimension. Rounds 2 and 3: Dormammu just destroys Arishem easily. The post-credits scene for Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness implied that Dormammu would be returning to the MCU due to Clea’s ties to Doctor Strange, Dormammu, and the Dark Dimension. Story: Thanos is waiting around like he did in End Game, and Dr. No one. Thanos is just a very tough, very strong,. See moreIn the Dark Dimension, Dormammu can win nearly any fight. Dormammu "might" be more powerful, right now, within his own realm, but he has a harder time getting to Earth than Thanos. Dormammu should stomp. The only ones that could even possibly hurt 616 Thanos are final flame Sutur and Dormammu. Dormammu is featless, Thanos one shots. All traits of a character are used for calculating the Classification. Thanos is by far the most iconic villain ever to show up in the MC U. For this scenario, Dormammu invades a random alien planet which Thanos's flagship happens to be orbiting at the moment. Dormammu was a final battle unlike any other. One established MCU villain who is more powerful than Thanos is Doctor Strange ’s Dormammu, who could easily return as an antagonist in Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. Dormammu was exhausted so he couldn't risk to get in the time loop again. Newest Battles with Dormammu. Thanos has no hope of achieving victory in Dormammu's realm. Thanos (MCU) - vs - Dormammu (MCU) # 34. Who will win in a fight between Thanos (Heart Of The Universe) and Dormammu (Eternity's Power)? Menu. Dormammu is a way bigger threat in the comics. He’s also one of the strongest and most powerful. Because Dormammu doesn't exist in time, but Thanos does. I was specifically talking about Dormammu, though. 2. If Thanos is wearing the gauntlet and has the time stone, he can undo that. Dormammu would wreck Thanos easily. . Thanos w. 588 B. He's the ruler of the Dark Dimension and gets all his powers from the entire dimension. They have a unholy unison, so Umar's power was flowing through Dormammu. He can mess with Magic from beings as powerful as Odin, and even reduced Thor to his Donald Blake form. In Doctor Strange, we are made aware of the different universes and especially the one one in which Dormammu resides, which is the Dark Dimension. Thanos: When it comes to Odin vs. Thread starter Coolboy6; Start date Apr 14, 2021; Tags dormammu (marvel cinematic universe) marvel cinematic universe thanos (marvel cinematic universe) Status Not open for further replies. However, Thanos would the Space Stone, Power Stone, Reality Stone and Soul Stone. GameStop Moderna Pfizer Johnson & Johnson AstraZeneca Walgreens Best Buy Novavax SpaceX Tesla. Dormammu überzeugte Kaecilius seine Macht zu benutzen, um die Meister der mystischen Künste zu zerstören und die dunkle Dimension auf die Erde zu bringen. Dormammu the Dread easy. Dr. 10 / 71. If Thanos and Dormammu went up against each. It would be a long and hard fight, as both characters have considerable powers to strike their opponent. Boros 10/10. 10 villains who need to be introduced to the Marvel Cinematic Universe, ranked. Main appeal of Father VS Ice King is that they are funny Anyways, Question (DC) VS Rorscach (Watchmen) kinda boring NGL Reply DerpPad14 I always come back! • Additional comment actions. Not even Celestials defeat Dormammu in the Dark Dimension. There aren't Dormammu chilling at the end of time. If Dormammu isn't a physical being, then the only thing in the MCU we can really compare him to is the incorporeal astral form Doctor Strange takes in his movie. If you're looking to defeat someone capable of destroying half the universe, you'd probably want to turn to someone whose very existence revolves around consuming entire worlds. Dormammu vs Agamotto was never shown on panel merely hinted, we dont even know where the fight took place. The central miniseries was written by Keith Giffen, [1] [2] with editor Andy Schmidt. 15 MCU: DORMAMMU. Before Dormammu could complete his plans, he was confronted by Doctor Strange, who used the Time Stone. I agree about everything he said and explained on that video. com. Dormammu yeah eternity and infinity gauntlet could but not thanos not dr doom not dr straneg wihtout time so yeah. Dormammu is an entity on a completely different power level. 4 Korvac's Nigh Omnipotence Make Defeating Him Nearly Impossible. Thanos has full infinity gauntlet. Fight to the Death or Incapacitation. Apr 14, 2021. vsTeam 2:Classic Dr. As Strange prepares for the attack, all three parties devise a plan to destroy each other. As we know from Doctor Strange's film, Dormammu cannot be defeated. Both are their MCU Versions. Thanos. Battle takes place in asgard. MCU Dormammu doesn't exactly have that scaling. Dormammu vs Thanos. Yes Thanos is very powerful and intelligent, and yes Dormammu often second-guesses himself and allows his own defeat. 2. However, gathering the Infinity Stones proved to be only part of the challenge, as harnessing their power required a being of immense power. Dormammu vs IG Thanos [MCU] Round 2. Forum Posts. round 2:I'm not sure who will be stronger if darkseid or thanos. Dormammu is below Galactus who himself cant beat Celestials most of the time and Knull one shots Celestials. There's really nothing the Thanos team can do to Dormmy unless full power includes Thanos with an Infinity Gauntlet. We would like to show you a description here but the site won’t allow us. MCU Dormammu is ridiculously powerful in comparison to what we have seen thus far. Go. Or Thanos rewrite reality. If you do the right rituals in the right order and destroy the sanctums, Dormammu comes and eats the planet. But certainly IG alone would not be useful. Ironically, Thanos is an Eternal himself (and in the comics, a deviant). In Avengers vs. The DC team, though, has two in Darkseid and Trigon, so they have the definite edge here. How formidable he is was clearly demonstrated in Doctor Strange when the Sorcerer. How many stones does Thanos need to take down Dormammu?Round 1: No Stones, Uru SwordRound 2: PoThis means that Thanos may not be able to "kill" Dormammu. Unlike Thanos, Dormammu doesn't need the Infinity Stones for endless power; he already has it in his grasp. Besides, Thanos is a. Shuma-Gorath, the ancient force of chaos, is immortal, nearly impossible to beat, and rules almost one hundred alternate universes. Sure, the influence becomes limited. Dormammu is a force to be reckoned with, only extremely powerful characters such a Doctor Strange can go up against him and live to tell about it. The MCU has chosen a different route for his backstory, but the appearance of Thanos’ brother Eros does put some of it into question. She once threatened Asgard by amassing an army of enthralled men, but was defeated by Lady Sif. #9. Thanos is by far the most iconic villain ever to show up in the MCU. GameStop Moderna Pfizer Johnson & Johnson AstraZeneca Walgreens Best Buy Novavax SpaceX Tesla. 1. Home. Dormammu Vs. There's really nothing the Thanos team can do to Dormmy unless full power includes Thanos with an Infinity Gauntlet. * Rules: -Random Encounter. Without that Gauntlet, the Marvel team only has one multiversal threat in Dormammu. Tie 0%. Thanos (Full Gauntlet) Vs Dormammu. 0 / 0% Dormammu Dormammu Earth-616. Strange is preparing for 1 hour to fight him and has full knowledge. . Classic Battle Royale - 3. ago Lol Nejfelt • 6 yr. 15. If Thanos is wearing the gauntlet and has the time stone, he can undo that. The Infinity Stones are the condensed remains of six Singularities that existed long before the current universe. Round 1- Thanos has no stones. . He was able to gain nigh-omnipotent power and put it to work, killing the team in battle before resurrecting them. But the Guardians have been called upon in moments of crisis, as was the case when Dormammu infiltrated Ego the Living Planet. even Galactus was considered a big alien rather than a cosmic being), so. May 29th, 2019 05:25 AM: Adam Grimes Devil On Your. Neutral Dimension. Dormammu can win. Superhero Battle match: Thanos (MCU) versus Dormammu (MCU). Still, Thanos with all the stones has infinite power at his finger tips, so he should be able to win with a snap, considering Dorm couldn't fully overcome Strange who had just one stone. . Thanos thread and it looked like Thanos was basically losing there , but ABC logic rises again. 7 Lose: Shuma-Gorath. Although very powerful, Dormammu is not as powerful as Odin. Dormammu is featless, Thanos one shots. So. She´s more powerful than the One Above All and beat Thanos lol. During that period of. Dormammu is the personification of the Dark Dimension. Dormammu (Doctor Strange) Dormammu in Doctor Strange. All Resolutions. Dormammu barely gave strange 30 seconds before he deleted him. Searching. *Thanos (MCU) - vs - Dormammu (MCU) # 35 K. Round 3 - Thanos has the Power and Space Stones. 616 Dormammu slaughters all rounds, on account of sheer haxx, and he is also above everything in DB. Thanos is without a doubt the King of prep in the MU (We'll say doom is the prince) and he's pulled off some amazing things that puts Dormammu to shame but 5 hours is just not enough even after. He uses the dimension's power as a weapon, utilizing it to. And while the One-Below-All may be Marvel's True "Devil" Dormammu is Stronger than heavy hitters like Mephisto and Lucifer himself, Dormammu is Stronger than the Biblical DEVIL! Trigon on the other hand suffers no power loss outside of his. MCU Dormammu is ridiculously powerful in comparison to what we have seen thus far. Rune King Thor, I think Thanos would need a little bit more of prep to. • 2 years ago. Although very powerful, Dormammu is not as powerful as Odin. Random Encounter. Gender: Unspecified Location: Nibelheim. But this is not a list about "Funniest Marvel. As his name implies, the One-Above-All is basically Marvel's most powerful god. He's the ruler of the Dark Dimension and gets all his powers from the entire dimension. What if Thanos and Dormammu encountered each other for the first time? I've always wondered and am curious about how this will result in. but he kill them with his weapon like thor kill celestial with his axe. It requires the other stones to function on that level, otherwise Thanos would have snapped much sooner. May 13, 2018 #1 Seems like a rather fun topic to discuss. . As I said we have nothing to compare these two. Dormammu is more powerful than Thanos and would win a fight against him. In Doctor Strange, we are made aware of the different universes and especially the one one in which Dormammu resides, which is the Dark Dimension. Who would win - Fight to the death - or as close to the death as possibleVS. Odin. Round 2: Ego confronts Thanos by either diverting thanos' ship to his planet form or by moving his planet form to thanos' ship. I'm not sure if Thanos is at SkyFather Level, but he is pretty close. A bloodlusted Boros could easily blitz and paste MCU Thanos before he even has the time to use the stones. Team 2. The two destroyed millions of universes in a brawl in Secret Wars II iirc. According to. Even though Doctor Strange has confined him to his own dimension, if Thanos were to. But Odin's superiority over everyone else here isn't small, it's titanic. Well, except one: We will readily admit that in the personality and sense of humor department, Thanos always beats Dormammu. ISBN 0-7851-2901-4. Or Thanos rewrite reality. Thanos(Marvel Ultimate) Vs. This battle is like comparing Demogorge to Shuma-Gorath. . Comics. The problem with Chthon in a neutral dimension is that he needs a host. R3 is dangerous because yes, Thanos with prep is exxtremely powerful. He is far stronger and far more durable than Thanos. 4K Dormammu (Marvel Comics) Wallpapers. You need to be logged in to read more comments. This guy is a being who basically rules the multiverse. Additionally, in the comics, Infinity Gems/Stones only work in their home dimensions. Clea was born to Prince Orini (son of Olnar, the former ruler of the Dark Dimension) and the Faltine fugitive Umar (sister of the Dreadful Dormammu). only thing knull better than dormammu is he actually kill the celestials. That doesn't mean Thanos automatically wins . Rune king thor has all his powers plus mjölnir, runes, odin force, and the destroyer armor. 13 / 14% Thanos Thanos Earth-616. Originally posted by Robtard It's clearly stated that Dormammu is a galaxy (or was it universe?) destroyer/level threat. Without the Infinity Gauntlet, a number of MCU villains easily outrank Thanos in terms of sheer power — these include Hela, Ego, and Dormammu, just to name a few. Gorr wields All-Black, the Necrosword, the initial Symbiote, and one of the most powerful weapons in the Marvel Universe. It was a long time ago, when MM was still considered weak. #9.